I just died a little inside. Not in the Shakespearian way, as the HLA will be pleased to know – oh to see their faces if their site had given me an orgasm…
Moving on to the point, I’d like to introduce you to the Human Life Alliance. Not only does it advocate abstinence until marriage (with the great ‘duct tape experiment’ on page 16 – check it out if you’ve got a strong stomach, it always makes me a little sick to read such idiotic claims) but it also makes the usual anti-choice lies about abortion and claims to answer the ‘rhetoric’ of pro-choicers -RE rape:
It is a despicable injustice when a woman is violated and raped. If a crime of this nature occurs and a child is conceived, HLA believes strongly in bringing the criminal to justice, however, we stand firmly in defense of the woman and the innocent new individual now existing – for neither have committed a crime.
choice:
What then is abortion? Does it fall in the category of choices that we ought to condemn or condone? First, it is killing. Abortion renders something that was demonstrably alive, demonstrably dead. Second, what is killed is human. The fetus that grows in a mother’s womb is not a duck. The female reproductive system is designed for the precise purpose of carrying this living being. Therefore, abortion is the killing of a human being. People cannot hide behind the argument of saying they are personally opposed to abortion but wouldn’t want to restrict someone else’s “right.” Try that argument in the following situations: “I’m personally opposed to slavery…”; “I’m personally opposed to gassing Jews…”. Furthermore, it should be quite obvious that even though people will continue to do wrong things, the solution is not to redefine right and wrong or to enable people to more easily carry out wrong things. The government does not legalize theft just because lots of people do it (and get injured doing it) and will continue to do it despite what the law says.
Young women getting abortions:
The women who have the most abortions are between ages 20-24. This is why HLA concentrates so much energy on reaching college students with the truth about the harmful effects of abortion and the humanity of the unborn child. HLA hopes to reach these students with the truth before they choose to suffer the pain of an abortion and the physical and psychological risks that follow.
There is a reason that I’m showing you this. A good friend of mine just sent me the link to their latest form of propaganda – a magazine for young women and men all about how great abstinence is, how terrible abortion is, how boys just don’t listen to girls, how girls are all crazy-emotional and marriage-obsessed, and all the other handy tips and facts that your newly-brainwashed ‘youths’ need to know. Hell, they even define love in one easy sentence!
I think the idea of such magazines on campus or in youth groups or schools is despicable. Spreading anti-choice lies is not acceptable. Yet here they are, a newly formed society, already spreading the word.
They have a response, of course.
9. How dare you put this on my campus and upset all these girls like this. This is too controversial to have on a college campus. Don’t you people have any respect for women!
HLA has great respect for women. It is because of our great respect for all human life that we are determined to educate people on the issue of abortion. Abortion harms women. Talking about abortion can be very upsetting for people, but it would be even more devastating to them if they had an abortion.
Of course. They don’t know how it will affect them, they don’t understand. Even if they wanted an abortion, that’s just because they’re ignorant. Poor youngsters who want to make their own decisions, we must help them realise that they are wrong in desiring autonomy. Psssh, women.
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June 14, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Lucy
I think there are only three reasons who a person should ever get an abortion
a) The parent(s) are so unable to support the child that it would become damaging to its life (eg. unloved/extreme poverty/taken into care)
b) That the baby is the product of rape or statutory rape (incest/under 16)
c) The baby is within the first 10 weeks and cannot survive outside of the womb. The cut off point is too high, at 24 weeks, the baby is able to live outside the womb.
You know its legal for a baby to be aborted at any point in the pregnancy if it shows signs of downs syndrome – thats why they do som many tests – to see if it has downs syndrome and that shouldnt be allowed! A baby is a baby, killing one that can survive is murder, whether its ‘abnormal’ or not.
June 14, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Lucy
but apart from that I’m pro-choice
June 14, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Lucy
And also I really do think the men should have a say, if he doesnt want a child and ahe decides to have it because of her beliefs – yeah its her body, but for god sake – that child would grow up either without a father or their father wouldnt care.
And if the woman decides she wants an abortion and the man believes its not right, for whatever reasons, that can be damaging to someone – and yeah feminism, feminism, its her body, her baby, but its his too! That should be a right people should take into account. Of course, they would have to have a significant relationship, but take a couple, been together for a year or two, theyre in love and suddenly the woman gets pregnant – he should have a say just as much as her.
I stand by that. Do you agree?
June 15, 2008 at 10:59 am
Caitlin
No, I don’t agree that he should have as much of a say as her. I think that yes, how he feels would be important. However, if a woman does not want to have a child, she should not have to simply because someone else wants it. If she wants to have a child, she should have it even if someone else doesn’t want it. I don’t think it would be right to then claim anything from the father – if he didn’t want the child, then it’s no longer his responsibility if she still does. It’s tricky though, I see that.
Ultimately, it should be the woman’s choice. Yes, ‘feminism, feminism, it’s her body, her baby’. You might be mocking, but I stand by the fact that YES, it is her body, YES it should be her choice. I also contend the use of the word ‘baby’ in this context, as it is very emotive when, as far as I’m concerned, it is a foetus that is the issue.
Also – the point is not about a happy, loving couple who have been together for a few years and who are in love. Maybe they would also want to get an abortion, maybe not, but you cannot narrow down all women to one possible scenario and use that to justify denying abortion.
I agree with your first two justifications of abortion, and rape is certainly an issue that tends to be glossed over by the anti-choicers, but I have issues with bringing down the cut off point. It’s something I’m still unsure of though, so when I’ve clarified my views, then I’ll let you know.
Also, you can be pro-choice and still be against the aborting of children purely because they have downs syndrome. Again, it’s a difficult one, and yes it has been argued (more often than not by anti-choicers) that this is a form of eugenics. No, I was not aware of the legality of aborting a foetus ‘at any point in the pregnancy’ – where did you get that from? I find it surprising, to say the least.
The problem is, people use cases like this (aborting to avoid bringing up a disabled child) to deny a woman’s right to abortion full stop. As you may have gathered, I disagree with that.
June 15, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Lucy
Just to clarify – the ‘happy couple’ you mentioned – did I say that?
Okay Im just going to clarify what I meant because you mis understood.
Woman and man in healthy relationship, woman gets pregnant. When they discuss options, they take into account, equally both of their feelings about it. – perfect option, yes.
BUT that doesnt mean I was generalising that scenario to different situations.
Say for example it was a mistake of a one night stand, its her choice entirely as to whether the foetus is aborted or not, I agree, but if she chooses to have the baby, then the law should be that he is not forced to pay a certain amount to her each month.
and each scenario in between that, is varying degrees of father input into choice. Thats all. Not mocking.
Bringing down the cut off point? In my opinion, as soon as a foetus can survive outside the mother, it is a baby. That point is 20 weeks onwards. The cut off point being 24 has big moral issues with me, in that sense I would consider it unnecessary murder. BUt thats me, please dont cut my head off.
A foetus being aborted at any point in the pregnancy if it has down syndrome is unfortunately true. In hospital when mum had me, the woman next to her was having an induced still birth of an aborted baby with down syndrome. I have a problem with that.
I do not agree with denying abortion full stop, I totally agree with it and think that it is right to do so in certain situations, I just dont agree with all of them
And I’ve found a wonderful site which I hope will feed your knowledge of abortion – its a pro-choice article on how wome should be able to abort foetuses at any point in the pregnancy and not have to give a reason. If thats what you agree with, caitlin.
I’m sorry I wont discuss this any further, its too close to my heart to have someone trample on it.
June 15, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Lucy
http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/aad4.asp
and a p.s: I think this is just as extreme and wrong as not giving women the choice to abort. But you can decide for yourself.
pps: I’m pro-choice in a way that is not destructive to anything I percieve to have a soul.
June 15, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Lucy
http://poetryinfatuation.blogspot.com
First post on the page
this is so cute, so so cute
and maybe it will make you lighten up after participating in this long serious essay about abortion – this is what happens when no people dont have abortions.
but seriously (not too seiously mind) its not about patriarchy, feminism, abortion and only slightly based (based not biased) on gender in the way only a toddler can get away with… that I know of…
anyhow go read it, smile, enjoy the small and strange moment, then go revise and do whatever you like doing… aristotle for instance… or doodly patterns…
June 15, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Caitlin
You don’t want to discuss further, so I’m not sure if there’s any point writing this – but the alternative is philosophy revision which is depressing, so this wins.
I read the article – as I said, I’m not sure about the cut off point, so there was no need for “women should be able to abort foetuses at any point in the pregnancy and not have to give a reason. If that’s what you agree with, caitlin.” But there we go. I dunno, Lucy. I think that a woman has a right to decide what she does with her body, and you can’t make her carry a foetus because it’s disabled just as much as you can’t make her carry a healthy one. It is her who will have to bring up a child, and one reason for women deciding to have abortions is because they don’t think they will be capable of bringing up a child – they don’t have the resources, the time, the energy – to bring up a child with a disability will take double the resources, time, energy, and it’s something that I guess would need to be taken into consideration. I agree with the article that to abort a foetus with a disability is not the same as denying the humanity and worth of the lives of those with disabilities. It is still, though, a difficult issue to address.
Ultimately, if a woman desires an abortion then it won’t be an offhand decision (normally, anyway. I disagree with the woman in one of Dave’s classes who compared having an abortion with picking your nose…) – to have an abortion is still a big decision, and it is not taken lightly by the women or the doctors who perform abortions. I doubt that a woman would abort a disabled foetus without being absolutely sure that it was the right thing to do, and I have to stand by the belief that women are capable of making their own decisions, morally and otherwise…
Anyway, yes your younger brother sounds adorable. Now I’m off to do some Mill revision (‘doing…aristotle’, for the record, is not something I ‘like doing’).
June 15, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Lucy
eh? not switched on at all – I hurt…
shawshank redemption
June 16, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Lucy
you know what – I just found a bit of quorn chicken that looks like a willy
hehe
hehehe
yes im almost 18
June 17, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Caitlin
Lucy that’s so irrelevant!
June 18, 2008 at 9:47 am
Lucy
sorry – was looking through comments and was eating quorn chicken at the same time…