We had an interesting discussion in philosophy today. Somehow, the Obama calling a reporter ’sweetie’ incident came up and we ended up talking about whether we saw it as acceptable for men to call women sweetie or darling or love, etcetera etcetera…
Personally, I can’t stand it. One girl in my class made a point that I certainly agree with – she said that often, it’s about power of the man over the woman, about being condescending. We are not children, nor are we lesser than men, but calling us darling or other ‘terms of endearment’ suggests that we are. Also, I think it is inappropriate for a stranger to call you affectionate names…
What do you think? I’d be interested to know…
And on that note – adieu.
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May 20, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Derek
I used to be guilty of calling partners by names such as those, but would refuse to do it now. I guess that’s because I feel it is demeaning, like you’re speaking to a child. Women do have names, after all.
That said, what Obama did was completely unacceptable, and I’m glad he’s been called on it it numerous places. I understand that between partners it may be a contentious issue, but never should a man address a stranger like that.
I’m glad to see you talk about this stuff in class!
May 20, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Caitlin
Haha yeah, when we should have been revising! Oh well.
Philosophy is the subject we get to talk about feminism the most in, actually. And as the teachers know that I don’t mind saying I’m a feminist (*sigh*) they deliberately start debates like this one. I enjoy it, I’ve changed a few people’s minds about some pretty major issues…so it’s all good.
I think things like that are more acceptable in relationships, but I dunno. Haven’t thought about it all that much…I only know that I hate strangers using such terms!
May 20, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Jacob Ward
Fine in relationships – it’s not demeaning it’s endearing and works both ways.
I don’t think it’s appropriate amongst strangers, but Barack Obama has been attacked far too strongly for this incident; it was clearly a mistake, he apologised to the journalist and from what I’ve seen she didn’t even notice or care about the whole thing.
Frankly Hilary Clinton’s way of dealing with unwanted questions is far ruder – simply ignoring them.
May 20, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Caitlin
He ignored her question too, after dismissing her as a ’sweetie’. The point is not whether she noticed or cared, it’s the larger implications. He claims it to be a ‘bad habit’ (so not a ‘mistake’), and he has done it several times, apparently, in the last few months. It’s not acceptable, as he has hopefully realised (he did issue an apology about it), and I think it’s good that attention has been brought to it. But I don’t think there has been a huge attack on Obama for it – everything I’ve read has just said that he realised his mistake, that he shouldn’t have said it, and then moved on to talk about the issue as a whole. This isn’t restricted to Obama alone, this is about the way men talk down to women.
In relationships, I suppose it depends on which words we’re talking about, what the context is and what the relationship itself is like…
May 20, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Matt Gates
Hmm, interesting stuff. I think, between people that dont’ know each it’s other it’s just plain odd- let alone sexist. Imagine if I just said to someone at work- ‘that’s £5 and your receipt darlin’ ‘ – that is odd. In fairness though, a lot of the people I work with tend to greet me with ‘alright me’ darlin’?’ (and vice versa)- in this context I see it more as a mark of friendship than any condesending sexism in my direction. As I say, it all hangs on context, intent and interpretation. If said in a leering manner, or in an offhand way to someone you’ve just prejudged then- obviously- there’s sexism there.
In relationships, some people like being called darlin’, sweetheart, sexy – etc. Can just be a symbol of caring and closeness- a say of saying how someone is special to you. My partner and I both use the term darling and it’s not condescending for either us really.
As for Mr Obama, it certainly sets a bad example – but not a hanging offence, and he did apologise and i’m doubtful that it is indicitive of his attitude towards women or society or anything. Bottom line, if you know someone well enough, and if used in the right way, i think terms which denote a certain closeness are acceptable.
May 20, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Jacob Ward
He said ‘just a minute’ as he was in the middle of a conversation. He later answered the reporters’ questions.
I’m not going to get involved in discussions henceforth as I have rather more pressing matters to deal with.
May 20, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Caitlin
Then don’t Jake! I don’t make you comment, lol.
“i’m doubtful that it is indicitive of his attitude towards women or society or anything” – Well Matt, I agree but at the same time, I hope he gets rid of his ‘bad habit’ or it will certainly begin to appear that he condones being condescending to women. Which, while not a ‘hanging offence’ (what IS a hanging offence though?), is still a big deal.
May 20, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Jacob Ward
I said henceforth.
May 21, 2008 at 2:10 am
Derek
Just to clarify, the female reporter in question did not get a response, whatever difference that makes.
May 21, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Caitlin
Yes Derek, that’s what I thought, but as you seem to imply it really shouldn’t make a difference. Does replying to her question justify calling her sweetie? I think not.
And Jake – ok! You just don’t have to put it quite so…brutally. Just don’t comment, rather than saying you have better things to do. That’s rude and unnecessary.
May 21, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Jacob Ward
There was a media event scheduled shortly after the fateful event to deal with questions along those lines so an answer to her question would have been given at that time, albeit not as a direct answer to her. My point was that Clinton just stands there ignoring people asking her questions while Obama is at least courteous enough to respond.
I thought it more polite to explain my forthcoming absence, otherwise my silence would have been interpreted as agreement given my hitherto active participation in discussions. To be frank, I know what I consider more important out of A level exams and arguing the toss on a blog. I was merely saying that, due to the fact that the course of my life depends on the exams I will be sitting shortly, I will not be participating in further discussions for the time being. No offence was intended.
May 22, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Matt Gates
I discussed this with my dad yesterday and he’s left me an article from today’s Sun (yeah, yeah I know!)
‘In a survey of 2,500 female office workers those under 33 were most likely to be offended by male colleagues using pet names… female workers said they found it patronising and left them angry…babe is the most hated office pet name…second most disliked was love…followed by hun, mate and then chick… sixth on the list was kiddo [wtf?] then darlin’, pet, poppet and my dear..ten percent of ladies surveyed in the South East said they would take Babe as a compliment’
I realise it’s from the Sun and is of extremely limited validity- just thought it would be of interest
May 22, 2008 at 10:47 pm
‘Man imprisons’ « The Token Feminist
[...] some things that regardless of how they are intended, should not be said. For example, returning to a previous post, the intention of a man who says ‘thanks babe’ in a shop should of course be [...]
June 4, 2008 at 1:08 am
conglomeratic
Conglomeratic says : I absolutely agree with this !